Patrick Farley makes it visible.
At last, I know who the goodguys and badguys are! Huzzah!
I so wish this wasn’t a big deal. I think that what the absolute big issue is revolves around the actual word ‘marriage.’ Somehow, I think religious types think that any kind of legalized marriage between same sex partners means that their religion has to change and to be fair, some gays seem to believe that they have to ‘stick it’ to the religious types and make them eat that word. What it comes down to, though, is that not everyone has the same rights in this country. Period. The word doesn’t matter, and the idea of forcing churches to change is irrelevant. We all get the legal connection, the visitation rights and tax breaks or no one does. That seems fair.
Thanks, Scott. Spotlighting these things does help, and it does matter.
Looks like a pretty fair representation of both sides. Would be cool to have something like this in a more sequential art format, showing flow and causality – both sides! It was fun to follow each path, and there were more than a few gotchas on each side.
P.S. Scott: aside from Google, this is the one page I consistently visit, knowing that I will find something awesome every time. 🙂
Sigh… I usually enjoy your stuff, but if I wanted to hear us ‘religious types’ get mis-characterized as intolerant and bigoted, there are any number of places I could go to hear that.
I don’t see how posting a diagram of the augments of both sides categorise’s anyone as anything.
No one is saying all religious types are like this, merely that a lot (most) of the arguments against do stem from a religious background.
I’m genuinely sorry for any offense, Michael. And of course, Patrick’s diagram is originating from one side of the debate — the same side I’m on, obviously.
But I’m afraid that of all the issues people get red in the face about right now, this is the one where my whole family is the most adamant. Ivy was literally in the streets, protesting against Prop 8. Linking to a snarky diagram once in a while is the least I could do.
Scott, I’m glad you concede that this is indeed a very biased and opinionated diagram, one that presents the case for gay marriage as reasonable and measured and the case against it angry and reactionary. (All the reds have angry exclamation points and the blues are soothing and well-researched.)
Frankly, whatever you believe, it’s unpopular to point out that there are very intelligent and moral people on both sides of the debate. Would’ve been nice to see a diagram that reflects that, but alas.
Still, interesting to look at. Thanks for sharing it.
Jeremy, do you really think “it’s unpopular to point out that there are very intelligent and moral people on both sides of the debate.” I think that sort of statement is pretty popular — you hear it all the time in the media, and from popular people like President Obama (think of what he said to explain inviting Rick Warren to an honored place at his inauguration, for example).
I think people are very comfortable saying stuff like “there are decent and intelligent people on both sides of the issue,” because saying that doesn’t require being mean.
And it’s even true — there ARE decent, intelligent people on both sides. Most people would agree with that, I think. (I definitely agree with it!)
Where you run into disagreement is if you say there are decent, intelligent ARGUMENTS on both sides. As far as I can tell, most folks who want to repeal the ban on same-sex marriage just don’t think that’s true (I sure don’t). And here I’m not sure what you’d advocate to fix that problem. Should I be lying and saying that I think the other side’s arguments are better than they are, just to make folks feel better?
Scott, I appreciate your gentlemanly demeanor in all this, even if you and I passionately disagree on this issue.
As I appreciate yours, Michael.
I personally am ambivalent about marriage but I think that if people want to get married then they should be allowed to marry. I do think that using the Bible as a way to prove gay marriage is wrong is hysterically funny. Gay was probably frowned on when there was a need to procreate, there really is no need for people to procreate anymore so the Bible is a bit outdated for regulating social behaviors. “do not harm the hairs forming down the sides of your cheeks” , a direct command that most people don’t follow.
Couldnt agree more.
I think the world would be much better of these days with a lot more homosexual couples. The west use’s up too many resources per person, a lower population growth rate would help give us a chance to redress the balance.
And seeing as no one wants to be stuck with limiting the number of children couples can have, the least we could do is not suppress the natural parts of our society who would never naturally conceive children.
“go forth and multiply” thinking is not only redundant in this day and age, but potentially very dangerous on mass.
I want a world were everyone lives at first world standards…that just isnt possible with 7 billion of us using the ecological footprints we do now.
I have maintained a relationship for 19 years without the benefit of governmental support. I have also paid attorneys an awful lot of money for estate planning that will hopefully hold up to even the most unsympathetic judge. The arguments are becoming old, I simply want to live my life and enjoy the same the rights as any other couple.
Hospital visitation and inheritance of already shared property seems pretty basic. Very few people want to argue that point, especially when my relationship has outlasted their legal marriage. Why the hold up over a simple word?
Freedom of religion protects the churches who don’t support gay marriage from being forced to perform the ceremonies. How about a little freedom FROM your religion for me?
…and *that* to my mind, is the heart of the matter.
We loved visiting with you guys in 07. Thank you so much for contributing your thoughts here.
Thanks Scott for posting. Any person who takes ridiculous herculean efforts to stand in the way of two people in love, wanting to get married, I am worn out trying to reason with you — I might just send along the diagram. 🙂 Let people live their lives. I think it’s important for writers, artists, and other creative types to be more outspoken. It doesn’t mean we have to turn our blogs into political war zones, but people should know that I don’t think it’s okay to be anti gay marriage. Scott and his family are some of my favorite people, and here’s another reason.
I think the diagram is hilarious, thanks for posting.
Oh, I’m getting so tired of these arguments lately. I miss my old self who thought well-researched reasoning can solve matters. When I’m trying to convince people of the obvious I imagine a little kid in their head throws him/herself to the ground and yells ‘I think this way because I want to! End of story!’.
I whole heartedly agree, a debate where people on both sides refuse to listen to reason is not only pointless, but tiring and incredibly annoying to those trying to make reasonable arguments.
Scott, as kind of an afterthought on this issue (as well as my final posting on this thread), I know several couples in my little circle of ‘religious types’ who made it a point in their marriage to NOT get marriage licenses because they didn’t feel like they needed some sort of secular governmental sanction for what they felt like was a covenant between their spouse and God. From my understanding, the lack of a state sanction does make it a bit more problematic on issues like taxation, but the harassment is worth it for them to live by their principles. Just another ingredient in the pot….
Marriage is a strange ground in our country, because it’s where the line between religion and politics gets a bit blurry. Archetypally, when most americans think wedding we see a christian wedding. Even i do and I know i’ll have a jewish wedding (if any at all).
Yet it is also very important that couples have rights so we can’t simply cut off any legal implications of marriage.
This is exactly why gay marriage should be legal. Gay couples are adults who have decided to live together and share resources. The government should be concerned with making their lives prosperous and safe (like government in general exists to do). And since we have separation of church and state the us government should not be concerned what this means on a religious level. It shouldn’t matter even if it does say in the bible that it’s wrong. If we have free religion you can observe whatever faith however you want to and the government still has to give you the rights of an american citizen.
Any thing else is ridiculous.
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